The Power of Being a Beginner with Nancy Macdonald

Nancy Macdonald has spent over twenty years watching people walk into her studio terrified they will get it wrong. And she has spent just as long watching something shift in them when they finally let go of that.

In this episode Kirsten talks to Nancy, founder of Atelier 123, about the power of play and what happens when you give yourself permission to be a beginner at something. Why the not knowing is not the obstacle. It is actually the whole point.

For anyone who has been waiting until they feel ready, this one is for you.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Field Trip Marketing, the podcast. A podcast which is all about looking at marketing differently. I'm Kirsten, a marketing coach and consultant, the host, and the idea behind this show is simple. Each season I'm going to pick something worth exploring, and we'll go on a field trip together. Different angles, interesting conversations, and one big question. What does this mean for how you build your business and show up in your marketing? This season, our field trip is all about joy, and I think it's going to change how you see everything. I can't wait to get started. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Field Trip Marketing Podcast. As always, I am so happy that you are spending some time with me. And today I have a special guest, and it's somebody who I've gotten to know quite well over the last few years. And I had the opportunity to create some artwork with her recently. And so I'm very excited to introduce you to my guest today, Nancy McDonald. She's the founder creator behind Atelier 123, which we'll get into. But welcome, Nancy. Kirsten, thank you so much for having me here to talk about joy. It's a great subject. It is. And so on that, well, I think it's a great subject, but on that note, how would you define joy, Nancy? You and I spoke about this once, that it is our ability to move through the world as our authentic selves, saying yes to the things that move us, and no to the things that don't. And I will add equally knowing that the people we love and adore are well and thriving. I think that's really important as well. Yeah. It's funny that you bring up the wellness component. And recently I saw a short video clip with former first lady Jill Biden, and she was talking about how, you know, obviously President Joe Biden, he's retired. As some of you might know, he's been going through some health issues. And she was speaking about how, you know, when he left the office, they had all these great plans for, you know, what retirement life would look like, that they were going to be traveling, they were going to be, you know, crossing some things off their own bucket list. And then things shifted when he received diagnosis with prostate cancer. And just hearing you speak around, you know, I've been on a bit of a mission myself through this podcast. How do we actually define joy? And I just thought it was very interesting that you picked up the wellness component because, and maybe this is like a tangent that something sparked there where you went. I was like, oh, it reminded me of this clip. But you're right, wellness is a part of joy, and having the people around us being well is also important. I love that so much. You're drawing on something also that is critical to joy, and that is pivoting, which in this instance, your reference point, the Bidens had to do and have had to do. You know, you expect life to go a certain way and it goes down a different path, and taking the right lesson from each experience, pivoting joyfully. So it's this combination of you know having an innate sense of joy because we're doing what we love, but also let's not forget, doing the things we don't love with joy as well. Sometimes we have to dig into that instinct additionally to just live this life and to try to say, okay, you know, today I have to do this because it's part of being an adult. And I'm other than I need to find a way to find joy in that. How do you find joy in the Mudane? Like I'm I'm curious. You know, I have been thinking a lot about talking to strangers and how from a young age we're told not to, and how we then, you know, as adults, you and I went through the pandemic and strangers became dangerous again, or more increasingly, and how important it is to talk to strangers in our daily lives so that the mundane experiences are made a little bit more magical. And I think it's through connection, which is a, as we know, it's the antidote to loneliness. And loneliness is gonna is going to pull the joy out of our lives. So let's reverse engineer how we move through the world, grocery shopping, walking our dog. I mean, maybe those aren't the most mundane examples. I would say grocery shopping is mundane. Walking your dog, perhaps not, but I I think say hello to your mailman, find out what his or her name is, your mail carrier. Uh, we offer our mail carrier a muffin every time we see him, and it helps that our desks are in the window, so nobody gets past the front door without our knowledge, you know, because we're right there in the window. But I think talking to strangers is a beautiful way to feel like the world is a good place. It is filled with good people. We can't make assumptions about who people are from the outside. We can greet them, we can talk to them, we can call them by name if we know them or if they're wearing a name tag, we can engage with them, we can not look at our phones on the elevator. I think I think that brings me a lot of joy, actually. Yeah, I I recently what do you see? I recently saw your Instagram story about phones and and being on devices and you know, taking that moment to put them down. And, you know, it's a very it's a tough thing to do. Like I'll include myself in this. We are so glued to our devices and we're so worried that we're gonna miss out on something, right? And but then just even hearing you talk about like speaking to strangers, you know, about a month ago, I was at a local grocery store, Farm Boy, and as I was checking out my lunch, I asked the person, I was like, How was your weekend? I think it was a Monday, and he paused and we ended up having a really beautiful conversation. And I think sometimes we're just so either, you know, in other circumstances, I might have been on my phone, like just, you know, oh, tap and go. I'm in a rush. I want to get back to work. But I was like, you know what? I'm gonna mix things up today. I'm gonna do what you just described. I'm actually gonna have a conversation with somebody that I might not have had a conversation with. And maybe it was a break for him in his day as well, right? So, but what were you doing? I love that. I love that. No, I'm actually I'm a bit touched by that because I think people are hurting and people are lonely, and I think it's amazing the difference one conversation, one person can have with the way something goes for another person. And that includes a stranger. I think about times that have been difficult in my life and how both the kindness and the cruelty of strangers, I mean, have affected me, truthfully. Both of those things. So if that's happened to me, it's happened to everybody, right? We're we're all human. And so if you can be at the uh in the driver's seat of making a difference for someone, you're gonna feel better yourself anyway. Take it as a selfish thing, right? You're gonna feel better yourself. Yeah. And actually a couple of weeks ago, I was walking with a friend in our neighborhood, and we were walking side by side, and we had our coffee and we were chatting, and this woman was coming in the opposite direction, and she had her two dogs. And we did shift over, but I think from her perspective, it wasn't enough. And Auntie, she yelled at us, she swore at us, she used language that is not probably even appropriate for an explicit podcast that I've rated this as. And, you know, we were both really shocked. Like it was a sunny day, like we didn't want to go on to traffic. Yes, maybe we could have navigated a bit more, but we were in our own conversation a little bit in our own world. And I was and we walked away, but both of us said, you know, maybe she's not having the best day, you know. Very nice recovery, Kristen. Honestly, I I didn't know where you were gonna go there. It wasn't the immediate recovery. It was, you know, I will, I'm human too. I was like, you know, what the heck? Like, what is wrong with you? And then I was like, you know, maybe something's up with her. But in the same way, she didn't know what we were talking about, what was going on in our lives. And I think it's it kind of goes back to the pandemic. You don't know what people are going through. We could have been coming from the hospital, which is just around the corner from where we were. You know, maybe she was, I don't know. Like, give people the benefit of the doubt. Give people the benefit of the doubt. I love that so much. Inevitably, what we're taught very hard to put into practice in those moments of you know, people surging anger, but what we're taught is that it's actually it actually has nothing to do with us. And that includes anger from loved ones. We're okay, we've been talking about strangers, but really any of this stuff that comes our way, and also the stuff that we dish out comes from moments of not being in our highest form. And because we participate in that lower version of ourselves on occasion, hopefully we're keeping it in check for the most part. We we can give people the benefit of the doubt because if it's a big pot we're all putting into, there are gonna be times where we need them to draw from that and be patient with us because we're not giving our best. And I love what you did there. And I think we live in a big city and civility is on decline. We see it. So we can be a part of the anger and a part of the problem, and in so doing, be reactive to anger that comes our way with anger, with bitterness, with resentment, with whatever. Or we can kind of spend out on what's missing, you know? And the spending out is gonna feel better for us. Like even if you're just gonna lead with selfish and and that's okay too, it's gonna feel better. It's gonna feel better. And and I I I love what you're saying and I love your reaction there. I almost got literally run over by a cyclist, didn't ring a bell, didn't do anything like that. And I the wind, you know, as as he went by me, it was so close. And if I had just kind of moved my arm like this or something, you know, anyway, I don't know. They were distracted. Let's just say that. And nothing did happen. But I felt I felt I felt angry in this the same way as not, you know, not making room for me there. What am I completely invisible? What's going on? But I like your takeaway. Yeah. Okay. I think one of the biggest takeaways so far, and this is why I love these conversations, because start somewhere and then we end up zigzagging and navigating. But people want to be seen. I think that's the bottom line for me. And so switching gears a little bit, you know, what you do with the business you have, atelier one, it's atelier one, two, three, or do you do like and de trois? I don't know. Oh cute. Bring it. Yes, because you're right. It is a French word. It's about being a lot of the work that you do in this business, I think, is about helping people feel seen or their ideas feel seen. So can you share a little bit more about what actually is this business and why did you start it? Oh, thank you. Well, I think the business is first off, it's an art school. It's not a classic or typical art school in that our great focus is to take beginners of all ages, pretty much from age four up to 94, through a transformative experience, blank canvas to wal-worthy art, in under three hours, typically. And it was really born out of a desire to give my two young children a more formal art instruction. I couldn't find an art program to suit their needs. I basically created it. And I believe, and I think you'll agree, Kirsten, this is a classic female entrepreneur story. We see a void in the marketplace specifically for what we ourselves are looking for, and we create it. So necessity is truly the mother of invention. Yeah, no, it's true. I'm laughing because right now I'm I'm looking for to plan my daughter's tween birthday party, and I cannot find any resource. Like, there's tons of resources about like where to take your kids in Toronto, but once they reach a certain age, there's nothing. So I was like, God, like somebody needs to create this. And but I don't want to go down that path. Let's stick with stick with what you're you've created and and what you're building. But I think what's really interesting to me is, you know, hearing you you speak, it was born out of a need for your kids. But so many of the people, you know, who walk through your doors are adults. And I'm gonna include myself in this is that, you know, I I came and I painted something. I have never really beyond, you know, maybe picking up a paintbrush to play around with my kids. I've never created art in this way, and so it's been very fascinating for me to watch you like you do such a beautiful job of like convincing so many women and men and couples and multi-generations to come in to your studio to create that wall-worthy art. I've never seen anything like it. How do you how do you do that? So I think the first question you're asking me is how do we convince? And you know what's really interesting, and this is maybe going to come a little later in your questioning, but let's jump on it now. Yeah, the word convince, I used to think helbit spot smack dab in the middle of of selling. And I actually really believe, and I spoke about this last month in a keynote address. We don't want to convince in this life. We actually want to stay kind of neutral. I think what's really happening is the reverse. People are super hungry for this. It's like, do you know the first time you baked a cake with your mom, let's say, and you were mixing, and it felt so good to mix the batter, or you were making cookies, and it's just very tactile. There's some agency, obviously, and there's a great feeling that happens, it's textural. And I think when people see people paint, people who've never painted, maybe they painted the walls of their room at the at the most, you know, but they've never painted a canvas, and when they see it, they feel that's what I'm hungry for. And so what I'm trying to do is help answer the questions to allow them to feed that hunger without guilt, without fear, without shame, without like to kind of prepare them for that so that it's not a convince, it's actually an easy yes. And and not everybody wants, not everybody wants, but there are a lot of people who don't think they can have and they want. And that's not just about art, it's about lots of things in life. I want this, but I don't think I'm worthy of it. I don't think I can have it. And I want to create an environment where people can have that artistic expression, which is so critical to feeling alive, I think, and feeling connected to the source of ideas and to self-expression. Hmm, you're right. People are really craving. And this actually, I spoke about this in an earlier podcast. I went off and did a little bit of research because what I'm seeing a lot, and it's interesting, is that people are posting about this craving. They're posting about wanting to do the crafts, they they're posting about wanting to get together with their girlfriends. Often it is women in their 40s and 50s, and they want to use their hands or to create something. And I find it fascinating that we're posting about this craving on our phones on social media. So I dug a little deeper and I actually did a survey and I asked women if they would fill it out. And I said, What's getting in your way? And people said it was time, they didn't have the time to go and and create, which I call bullshit on because we spend so much time on our phones. But it's, you know, sometimes it's not the easier option. And I think, you know, there were some silver linings with the pandemic, but the downside is we became a little bit homebody-esque. And going out into the world, like it's not as easy. And then coupling with that, as you get older, I think it's harder to make friends, like is sometimes so people might feel like there's those barriers, but it's just something I've been observing, which kind of relates to what you were speaking about, is people want, but they don't know how to sometimes. Time poverty is a bit of a social construct, you know. I think people, as you say, they're not thinking about the things that are actually grabbing their time that aren't productive or joyful. And by the way, I also scroll, don't get me wrong, and I also do other things that aren't productive, and I can't think of them right now, but I know I do them. And you know, fill carts online and then abandon them, those kinds of things because I can't figure out what size, all of the things. But I think if we're honest about what do we want to do and what brings joy, and work backwards from filling our week with enough of those moments, start to talk to strangers, and I also think, you know, we haven't talked about another thing that I think really brings joy. I watched one of our kids sing in a very animated, joyful choir on Saturday night, and she was moving her body, she was singing at the top of her lungs, the joy was just like radiating on top of her, and everybody else in the choir, by the way. And the next day I went to a shower, so yesterday, and there was a you you were allowed to give advice on a card for the bride to be, or you could also read it in front of the crowd. And I thought, I don't really like public speaking, it makes me nervous. And a room full of women can be a combination of many things, as we know. And I was kind of motivated by my daughter's courage to be in this choir, to sing loud, to be on the stage for almost three hours. And I thought I'm gonna do the hard thing because it's not being asked of me. And as remarkable as that might sound, that joy would come from that, it really does, Kirsten, for me, and I think for most people, doing the thing we don't have to do, it scares us a little, like you coming in to do a workshop and create a large canvas, which you hadn't done before. Probably scary and definitely not something you had to do. It's not a doctor's appointment, it's not taking your child to school, it's not grocery shopping, it's not any of those. It it was something you didn't have to do, but you opted in to do. And I'm gonna guess you had a similar kind of exhilaration that I had after doing something I didn't need to do that scared me a little bit. Yeah, no, one hundred percent. And so do you see like that when people come into your space and it's a beautiful space, they come downstairs if they're in in your downtown map. Location and three hours is a long time to spend together. But is there a shift that you notice that you know, like I I noticed it in myself, but I'm just curious from your perspective, like that first, like, oh god, am I gonna mess this up on the canvas, this brush stroke? Is there a shift for most people where you know, especially adults are so scared of getting it wrong, right? I think the letting go of perfectionism, which we know children have that in spades. They are not born to pursue perfection, they're just trying to get their needs met and and be playful, you know, as they start to age, they're just like, How can I play? How can I enjoy? How can I have as much fun as I can possibly have? And it's those six, four, six, eight-year-olds, ten-year-olds who are not dancing with perfection, who I've learned the most from. And I think to whatever extent I can get grown women to think about their eight-year-old self, to get into that zone, to know that there's nothing on that canvas that they can do that will ruin it, because we can add layers on top, we can make beauty out of each moment that happens on that canvas, and we can quite frankly cover it up, you know, yeah, or take it off with a with a wet rag. The painting allows for that, and an abstract is going to allow because we get into the goop. So I think, yes, I see a transformation. You know, I typically do a warm-up exercise, a creative exercise to shake off the outside world, and so what that could look like a love letter to oneself, some journaling, something to get people to be grateful for who they are. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great exercise. And this, you know, the letting go of perfectionism, and it's something that I constantly have to work at myself. Like even this morning, you know, I did a speaking engagement, and it didn't go as planned in my head because technology, it was the wrong setup, it felt a bit uncomfortable for me. And you know, I left it and I was like, I didn't do well. And then, you know, as the morning went on, I was like, in the grand scheme of things, is this really gonna matter? You know, sometimes things don't work out the way that you want them to work out, and you just need to be okay with that at times, right? And maybe it wasn't as bad as I thought. So, but uh exactly, and and and what would you what would your one of your little people say to you about it? They they would probably say, Mom, you were amazing if they had been there, you know? Yeah, no, it's true. You know, I I do think that this perfectionism and sort of that fear of the unknown is in a way, because you know, maybe as you know, I'm I'm into marketing, is I think sometimes it stops people from showing up as themselves and being who they truly want to believe to be. And when I look at, you know, you and I know many amazing businesses in common. And one of the things I often hear is like I just hate showing up. I'm not gonna do this video right. I mean, they're almost their own worst enemies. And I think if you gave yourself permission to create in the way that you wanted to create, you'd probably create the best possible marketing for your business. But it's that fear that is stopping people. But I don't know if you see any similarities. No, I absolutely do. I think if we think about the end goal, and the end goal is to connect. I think the worst possible experiences that I've had in my life, let's just say, you know, going through a divorce, which is whether you like it or not, it's public. You don't need to be a celebrity for it to be public. The very public divorce, they're all public because everybody finds out, and it's it's a new status, things change. It's very visible. And, you know, my dad's battle with dementia, which ended up, you know, taking his life. Over time, learning to not be private, and I'm not I'm not really talking about, I think privacy has its place, by the way, in marketing and in life. Yes. But what I have found, and and everybody can decide what that mix is for them, but what I have found is, and and you know, your listeners can't see my hands, but when you were in a conversation and we're two people, let's say, you know, a foot apart, and it's symbolic more than anything. When I share my hard bits in a matter of fact way, not in a cold way, but just this is part of who I am. The other person kind of leans in. Now we're, you know, eight inches apart, six inches apart, and then they're like, Oh, I can ante up if I want. They've led, they've, you know, they've turned a card over, I can turn a card over. And what ends up happening is I'm not a lover of small talk. So we get into the real stuff, and I can express my curiosity about somebody else's life, and they can express their curiosity about mine because I'm unguarded. It's been such a dramatic game changer for me, Kirsten. I can't even explain it to you. I almost don't have any small conversations anymore because we just get into it. And so that's joyful too, in an interesting way. Because I don't feel I don't feel shame about things that have been traumatic for me. I feel a lot of my growth has come from hardship and and from wonderful things as well, of course. But I like that shared humanity piece. I agree with you. I mean, even just hearing you speak about your father's journey path with dementia, like my my mother had it as well, as you probably know. And I think there's when there's a shared commonality, it really does open up the conversation. And, you know, when I started speaking a little bit more about her having that disease, people reached out. People were like me too. And there was a connection, and I think so, and it comes back to like people want to be seen and they want to feel less alone. And sometimes in in the case of dementia, people feel very alone, especially from a caregiving perspective, as I'm as I'm sure you know as well. That could be a whole other podcast on that. I've so enjoyed this conversation, and I I'd love to keep going, but I'm gonna ask you two final questions if that's okay. What is one thing that somebody could do who's listening to this? What is one thing they could do for themselves this week that you think would bring somebody joy, like a small thing? Do I have to pick one? You can pick two. I think all right. Oh, you're so nice. You're so generous. Okay, let's see. Just two. Let's see, let's see, let's see. I'd say talk to strangers. And I would also say do something that scares you. Yeah. Do something that requires you to take a bit of a leap because I think joy is on the other side of that. And and I I always think of joy as feeling alive, what makes me feel alive, and that is connection to talking to strangers and of course talking to people you adore and love, but also challenging yourself in some way. I think exhilaration and feeling alive is on the other side of that. And what's one thing you're gonna do this week for yourself to bring you to your point? Keep pushing through the barrier that I have for myself in moments. And I think, I mean, I'm I'm taking a trip this week with a very good friend of mine who's celebrating her birthday and a few other friends, and I find it very hard to leave my life and leave my business for even you know, five days. And so I'm gonna lean into the joy of it. I'm gonna know that everything's gonna be okay while I'm gone, and I'm gonna lean into that and make the most of the time with the fine people that I'm gonna be with. I love that. For some reason, I picture you going to Italy, but you don't have to answer that. No, that's okay. We're going to Tofino, we're shopping Canadian. You're shopping Canadian, nice. I actually a friend of mine just got back from Tofino, and my husband uh he was born near there, so I'm sure you're gonna have an amazing time. But Nancy, thank you so so much for anyone who is listening. I will pop in the show notes all the links to Nancy's website and social media. And if this conversation has sparked any curiosity and you're interested in creating your own artwork, I highly encourage you to check out her website, book a discovery call, meet Nancy for yourself because I promise you will have a joyful experience. But thank you, Nancy. Kirsten, thank you so very much for all the joy you bring to all of us. Your clever, beautiful way of marketing. I love your newsletter. For those who aren't getting it, the um field trip marketing, I believe it's called. Yes, it is. I love it. Yeah, yeah, I'm on a field trip. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

How lovely. And that's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me. Come find me over at fieldtripmarketing.ca or on Instagram at Kirsten J Marketing. I'd love to hear what you thought, and if you have any ideas on where we should take this field trip next. See you next time.